THE CHARLIE ROSE SHOW : June 2, 2000
with John Forde

Charlie Rose - In today's media saturated world advertisements bombard us at home on the street and virtually every public place. By the time the average child reaches adulthood they will have seen five hundred thousand commercials. Three years ago John Forde took it upon himself to create a television show that would deconstruct and analyze the ads we so often take for granted. The result is Mental Engineering, a PBS program broadcast in fifty markets across the country. In addition to hosting the show he also acts as its executive producer I'm pleased to welcome to this table, Welcome.

John Forde - Thank you Charlie.

CR First of all you're getting some attention for this not only in terms of building up audience but also in terms of people who write about television taking note.

JF Yes quite a bit. The New York Times did a wonderful... dang near a puff piece on us about three weeks ago.

CR Tell us, before we talk about Mental Engineering, first give me a sense of how it got started. How did you, not someone who had grown up in television end up hosting a television show.

JF Do you want the truth or the cover story?

CR Truth.

JF Well I'm going to give you both anyway. The creation myth, and it's true, when I was four I begged my parents for a toy airplane because it flew in the commercial. And I got it and it didn't and I was really heartbroken. The truth of how the show evolved is a little more complex than that. My Dad always said get a job in a good corporation and I didn't say Dad, that's an oxymoron, I probably should have said that. It took me a long time to figure out what a corporation really is. It wasn't until college when I came across the Devils Dictionary which defined 'corporation' as, "An ingenious legal device designed to extract personal profit without the burden of personal responsibility". And I thought, That's brilliant!

CR Profit without responsibility?

JF Yes. Limited liability. In the early nineties, I drove a school bus for eighteen years, I was very accustomed to hanging out with people who were the working poor basically. At that point what seemed to me the power elite started talking about personal responsibility, we've got to have more personal responsibility. And I thought, these are the only people who by law don't have any. I just took it upon myself to do something about it.

CR Now is that the real version?

JF That's the real version.

CR OK, so what do you do?

JF Started at cable access where all you do is pay for tape and we paid for food because craft services are the most important people on the set. Feed them well and they will keep coming back. Made eighteen shows and then people said it's really good, you have to do something. My parents had given us some money over the previous three years, about fifty thousand dollars, and I spent all of it to make video. They said 'this is an investment do with it as you will' and I invested it all in you know... The story has all the earmarks of a boondoggle, but it's working.

CR And where do you want to take it other than three hundred markets?

JF Well, I would say three hundred markets is a pretty good goal.

CR You've got two hundred fifty to go.

JF We just completed our second professional season now, and I think that we will reach something between one hundred and one hundred fifty stations. Um, but as far as the evolution of the show, we pretty much nailed it from the very first segment. We knew what we wanted to do and that's just to talk very honestly about how commercials use psychology and what messages they send about status, about rank, about how to live.

CR There are some shows that have originated on public television and on commercial television, I'm think about Roger Ebert and the movie review program that he does. Is this a commercial show?

JF No. I think that's one of the real beauties of this. Yea, they lost Siskel and Ebert, they lost This Old House. When I say 'they' I mean public television. I think we are making a bid for the soul of public TV. This is the one show that can never play on commercial networks, for a couple of reasons. Certainly there is the legal aspect. Because we are making a show that's primarily educational we don't need to ask permission to use the commercials. The other reason is more political. Even if we could get past that legal obstacle if we did the show for Comedy Central or somebody like that, the show would be inevitably watered down. It wouldn't be any good.

CR In you mind or in someone's mind has been compared to 'Politically Incorrect.'

JF At the superficial level it is very much like Politically Incorrect, because it is me and four panelists. Politically Incorrect is a dogma driven show. Bill Maher has said that in prep he pre interviews people, finds the one position they will defend to the death and then attacks them. Our show is much safer than that. When you've got what I call a phony two sided show which is what a lot of especially commercial political shows are...

CR two scorpions in a bottle.

JF No one ever feels safe enough to speculate in a way that they could be wrong. When they both feel the need for power you can never reach ...a moment of reverence... and I think that is very important to have on the show. You know how it's only in retrospect we kind of get a new perspective on things. It wasn't until John Lennon was shot that I realized I had modeled my life on his even though I am not a musician. In the same way Alan Alda. In the role of Hawkeye Pierce he had fun, he had political passion, and he had reverence. And those are the three corners we try and touch on each show.

CR Fun, Passion, and reverence not irreverence, reverence. Mental Engineering. What's that?

JF It's what they are doing to us. I'm sure there are a lot of the people well imbedded in the power structure who say it can't be done. That's not true. Simply just say 'click'. There, someone's taken you picture. If you take someone's picture their heart rate is going to go up a couple of beats. People can be manipulated in ways we don't understand. The primary finding of social psychology,... I'm going to take one step back here. I hope you don't have any more questions because I am just going to take a big digression here.

CR Go.

JF In psychology there are four theories of human motivation; behaviorism, psycho dynamics, cognitivism and social psychology

CR Did you get this from driving the school bus?

JF No. I have a master's in psychology but I hardly paid attention. Social Psychology I think is the... The primary finding of social psychology is the power of the situation has vastly more influence on us that we recognize, there is emotional contagion. The parable of the good Samaritan was reconstructed... The parable of the good Samaritan, we are told that there is good people and bad. Good people help people on the road and bad people ignore their problems and go by. That study was actually recreated on the ...that situation was recreated in a study on the campus of Princeton Theology seminary. The finding was that it really didn't matter what type of person they were what matters is how they were primed. Are they in a hurry? Are they not in a hurry? As people were going to give a lecture right outside the door was a person in need. There were confederates in the experiment who primed people on the way in and said 'Oh, you're late' or 'they are running late you've got about ten minutes'. If people had time most of them stopped. If they didn't have time they went in. It's not about character, it's about the power of the situation. And media and commercials that drive media are a big part of controlling that.

CR Tell me how you think, you, as smart as you are, were influenced by commercials and how it impacted on you in a way that's a negative influence. Did you buy into a kind of beauty culture? Did it cause you to have an internal sort of 'I've got to have the latest thing'.

JF It wasn't a direct cause. I remember when I was fourteen my identity was tied up in the skis, I had to have the best skis because that way everyone would think highly.. it was a status thing. People who watch the show we have got a couple of interesting wings. One is the David Horowitz wing the pro consumer people. On the other hand is the Adbuster people the anti materialism, anti western technology. And they hate each other but they both like us. If it has a motor it is good. I love to drive. I would squander the earth's petroleum resources in a second if it was just left up to my appetites. And I have guilty conscience about that.

CR Is there a consensus from doing this program about what ought to be changed about ads? Should they be more responsible, should they have more sensitivity to the welfare of children. I could continue this list and you might say all of the above, but in your mind...

JF I think the main thing is to educate children. We're trying to educate adults. I think educating kids about media literacy is hugely important. And kids are now bombarded with commercials... I mean everyone's ideal target market is Barney. If you can get kids at age one to recognize your logo you've got power for life.

CR Congratulations.

JF Thank your very much.

CR My thanks to John Forde executive producer and host of Mental Engineering seen on public television on various markets across the country check your local listings. See you next time.

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Last modified: January 19, 2002